Senedd Cymru | Welsh Parliament
Bil Aelod Arfaethedig – Mark Isherwood AS | Proposed Member Bill - Mark Isherwood MS
Datblygu'r Bil Iaith Arwyddion Prydain (BSL) (Cymru) | Development of the British Sign Language (BSL) (Wales) Bill
Ymateb gan: Alison Bryan | Evidence from: Alison Bryan
Mae'r ddogfen hon yn darparu cyfieithiad o'r ymateb BSL a gafwyd gan Dr Rob Wilks.
Question 1: Yes, I do think that this legislation is needed.
We have been fighting for a BSL Act since the 1990s, so it’s
been nearly 30 years now that we’ve been campaigning for
this. We are fed up with it. England created similar legislation
two years ago. This means that in England finally there is some
access to all public services. However, in Wales there are still
gaps, for example, within education and social care, transport,
access to councils, the list goes on. Those issues are devolved to
the Welsh Government.
BSL should not be, cannot be managed through policy. We have tried
that, and it has not worked. The Welsh Government recognised
British Sign Language as a language in the January of 2004.
That’s over 21 years ago. Over those 21 years, very little
has happened. There was a small increase in the amount of funding
to pay for sign language interpreters and BSL tuition around the
time of the announcement, but since then, nothing has really
changed. For example, during Covid, the Welsh Government made
statements to the nation on a daily basis and an interpreter was
screened during these announcements, which was fantastic and the
government should be praised for their media policy at that time,
however, more recently, over the last year, the presence of an
interpreter has been dropped. No reason has been given for this,
and it is not clear who made that decision. There was no
consultation with the Deaf community here in Wales about that. So,
policy itself is not enough. Imagine if the Welsh language was one
day removed from broadcast because somebody decided they no longer
wanted to pay for it. Essentially that it is what has happened with
BSL.
We do have disability discrimination legislation, but that is also
insufficient. I was involved in campaigning for this legislation
too, many years ago. It talks about making “reasonable
adjustments”. However, BSL provision can be expensive. This
leads to a situation where deaf people request interpreters but are
repeatedly told ‘no’ because the expense is not
considered reasonable. This is a problem. Disability discrimination
legislation focuses primarily on interpreting provision for those
who use BSL, but the issues are broader. For example, within adult
education, if someone needs IT skills, they can go and learn them;
they can also go and learn English or Welsh, but that’s it.
If somebody wants to learn BSL, how are they supposed to do that?
Where are the teachers to do this? When we talk about British sign
language, we are not just talking about interpreting and
translating provision but about respect for the language and a
cultural shift towards direct interaction in sign language with
others. Language is part of life, from birth to death.
The subject of BSL within education is also important. Welsh
citizens should have language choices within the education system,
and I don’t just mean deaf people, but if deaf parents have
hearing children, though their home language and their first
language would be British Sign Language, those children do not have
the option to continue using that language within the education
system. The fact that they have acquired and can use a full
language (BSL) may not be recognised or valued. Where are the
educational choices?
Around 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents. There are
many barriers to family communication in these circumstances. The
deaf child’s parents, grandparents and wider family,
including brothers and sisters as well as their community, would
ideally be able to communicate in BSL with them, but where is the
opportunity for them to learn? This means that deaf children are
often isolated within their families and communities and are forced
to adopt English or Welsh instead of their natural language.
It is understandable that families may want English or Welsh as
language options for themselves and their children, but why not
offer the opportunity for them to learn British Sign Language as
well? This would help deaf children to become part of their
communities.
As young adults, deaf people may choose to go to university, but no
courses are offered via the medium of BSL. Deaf people’s
choices are therefore limited when it comes to university. There
are a few universities offering courses in BSL. Those that do have
questionable standards and there are questions around who is
teaching and evaluating these courses. It’s concerning. The
tutors themselves may only have Level 2 and may be from outside the
country, from England or from elsewhere. How can you know that the
well-being of deaf pupils or the Deaf community is being
prioritised? You need to consider this from a safeguarding
perspective as well.
There are issues from the community side too, where people
naïvely think that if someone holds a certificate or has been
on a university course, then everything is fine, but that person
may have little or no experience of being able to communicate with
deaf people. It’s a big problem.
Where adults are concerned, there are lots of issues too. From
healthcare, employment, access to council services, GPs, transport,
the list goes on, because language is used everywhere. For example,
I live in Powys. There are no interpreters in this area. There is
no one for me to socialise with using sign language. Any deaf
people living around here are isolated and lonely. That’s
also an issue for employment opportunities because if there is no
BSL provision in this area then how can an employee get the
communication support they need to apply for a job or the support
they need while they are in work?
On the social front, deaf people in Wales have to travel long
distances to meet with others who they can converse with in sign
language, but social contact with others is really important.
I am a carer and have been for many years. The NHS is supposed to abide by the Accessible Information Standard, but this is not working in practice. I submitted over 30 complaints around three years ago about access issues. These happened on a very regular basis and were absolutely exhausting to deal with. I’m fed up and burnt out with it all. The NHS Accessible Information Standard and the practical guidelines that accompany it are flawed. The Health Board’s idea of teaching BSL through one hour lunchtime sessions where staff are encouraged to teach each other is doomed to failure. It’s the bare minimum. When staff members meet deaf people during the course of their work, I would not expect them to be of interpreter standard, but just some simple communication skills like being able to finger spell or knowing some basic signs would be something, but we’re not even seeing that. It’s very poor. I have had many stressful experiences. If you think about the Well-being of Future Generations Act, you have to wonder about the well-being of future deaf generations. The Act does not mention the people at all. We need a piece of legislation that protects BSL and allows it to be integrated into other legislation like the Well-being of Future Generations Act. The Well-being of Future Generations Act does not consider the importance of BSL at all.
I
also have concerns about the standards of BSL being taught here in
Wales. There are no agreed standards for teaching BSL. Anybody can
become a BSL tutor and there is no requirement to have a PGCE or
BSL Level 6. This leaves the way open to some very poor teaching
practice. Tutors in other languages, Welsh, French or whatever,
will have qualifications in that language, a GCSE as the minimum.
Not requiring this for BSL will have huge implications for deaf
people and for deaf integration. People who attend these courses
will not acquire adequate skills. When they then meet deaf people
or seek employment within deaf education with a qualification that
isn’t from Signature and does not meet national standards, a
certificate either from a local organisation or through a
university offering a course, who is checking the standards? Any
deaf child or adult relying on an inadequately qualified person for
language access will end up being language deprived, and that in
itself is a safeguarding issue. Nobody seems to be across this
problem.
There are issues too for older deaf people who need end of life
care or perhaps need to move into a care home or nursing home. In
Wales, although in theory people have a choice about which care
home they move into and can choose whether they prefer English or
Welsh speaking staff, there is no such option for deaf sign
language uses. There is no care home in the whole of Wales that has
staff that are fluent in British Sign Language. Being stuck in a
care home, unable to communicate with anyone will lead to isolation
and cognitive decline. It’s really important to remember that
the BSL Bill should not just be about interpreting.
Question 2: Yes, I fully agree with the goals the Bill seeks
to achieve. I have lived experience as a deaf sign language user my
whole life and I am very aware of the fact that disability
discrimination legislation is not sufficient to protect my rights.
There is no legislation that offers protection for my language here
in Wales. England has an Act already which gives protection, as do
other parts of the UK. Wales is behind on this issue. England has
an Act, Scotland has an Act, Northern Ireland soon will have one.
Wales is lagging behind. It’s not clear to me why the Welsh
Government have not addressed this issue.
The issue of the Commissioner also needs to be considered. Who do
they represent? Who is leading this? Who is going to be the face of
BSL? If they leave, what happens then? Who will be representing
deaf people within the Welsh Government? Will the official be part
time or what?
BSL signers face many barriers in life. For example, as a carer I
have had course to submit 30 complaints, and believe me, these 30
instances were not the only ones I could have complained about, I
was selective. Many deaf people experience similar barriers and
poor service, however, complaints procedures primarily use written
English and because of barriers to education it can be a problem
for deaf BSL user to navigate such processes. You have to remember
that historically within the education system BSL was suppressed
across Wales, and BSL signers face language discrimination not just
within education but in their dealings with councils, health
services, etc. I have lived through this myself and I’m old
enough to remember how BSL was effectively banned from education. I
remember in school, children were not permitted to sign or even to
gesture. If we were caught, we were punished. There are many
parallels here with the historic use of the Welsh language, for
example with the Blue Books and the Welsh Not boards children were
forced to wear. BSL has a similar history, where majority language
users have tried to restrict the use of BSL in the same way the use
of Welsh was restricted, so yes, we do need to talk about what deaf
people need, and consider wider promotion of the language, but if
you’re thinking about the history, and how BSL was
suppressed, I think part of what needs to happen is an apology and
an acknowledgement that wrongs have been done. There also needs to
be a public acceptance of the language as a valued native
language.
Question 3: Yes.
Question 4: Yes, because they are historically important and
also because regional dialects are still in use and efforts should
be made to preserve them. This should not be considered in
isolation though but should be considered in relation to
safeguarding and access for deaf people.
Again, consider the parallels with the Welsh language and its
regional variations. There are regional differences, in Anglesey
for example, but also a commonly understood shared language across
the country. The same is true of BSL. Without support for regional
variations, there is a chance they would die out and the language
would lose some of its richness. There is a particular risk of this
happening if teachers from outside of Wales are brought in to teach
BSL here - local dialect signs would be lost. That risk needs to
recognised and mitigated.
Question 5: My preference would be for the term “BSL
signer” because in English, the term “user” is
not commonly used in relation to language use. We do not talk of
“Welsh users”, we say “Welsh speakers”.
“Signers” is the linguistic equivalent and shows the
appropriate level of respect and recognition. So, my answer to this
question is yes.
Question 6: Yes, but this would exclude CODAs who may be
hearing but culturally Deaf and have been raised with BSL as their
first language. They are also “Deaf” in many important
ways, and it is important not to exclude them.
Question 7 (part a): I strongly disagree with this. I
don’t believe deaf people currently have a voice in the
design and delivery of the public services they use. Consideration,
if given at all, only ever addresses access needs and never
considers culture. It’s vital this is not overlooked. Access
currently is essentially access (via an interpreter) to hearing
spaces that operate according to hearing cultural norms. That is
not true accessibility. It may look like it on the surface,
but
it’s not truly inclusive. What we need is culturally
appropriate services, deaf spaces, and not just access to existing
hearing spaces.
Historically deaf people have faced barriers when it comes to
contributing to consultation processes. This consultation is a
prime example of an inaccessible consultation. I’ve heard
feedback from other deaf people for months about how they cannot
access this consultation because there is an assumption first of
all that in order to contribute, you must be able to use
technology. If historically you have faced barriers to education
this will have impacted your ability to use computers and be
familiar with common software. The consultation also assumes a
great deal of shared prior knowledge which deaf people may not
have. Yes, the questions are translated but these translations are
based on and led by the written English questions. Culturally,
face-to-face consultation is much more appropriate and effective
for the Deaf community.
I think within public services, the term ‘equality’
simply drowns out the needs of deaf sign language users, simply
because of the numbers. Equality is an umbrella term which
encompasses a wide range of needs and differences, anything from
ethnicity to gender to poverty to LGBTQ, sign language is a very
small part of that so it’s easy to ignore. Additionally, it
requires a diversity of language, whereas consultations for other
groups can still happen in English or Welsh.
part b: I strongly agree with. I do think deaf people should
have a formalised voice in the design and delivery of public
services that they use, particularly services that are specifically
for deaf sign language users. In South Wales I know that for many
years there have been huge problems with WITS Interpreting Service.
I’ve heard so many complaints and issues about this, but when
people raise these, they are just ignored. The service is paid for
with public money but there seems to be no way of evaluating
whether or not it is good value for money. It is not clear how the
service is assessed or who is making the decisions. It seems clear
that decisions are being made by hearing people, but deaf people
are not being asked whether the process provided is working
effectively for them. It feels as though some things are being
deliberately ignored, leading to deaf people feeling like they are
being gaslit.
I feel the minimum necessary would be a formal structure for BSL
users to feed into these processes, particularly deaf BSL users,
and that this process is led by deaf people. Then maybe there would
be greater awareness of issues.
Question 8: Communication methods? This is not about
communication! This Bill is about language. Welsh, English and BSL
are all languages. You don’t label Welsh or English as a
communication method. Communication methods are things like
writing, reading, speaking, emailing, etc. You may do these things
in English or in Welsh or indeed in another language. BSL is also a
language the communication methods associated with BSL can be
face-to-face, via video, that kind of thing. The Bill does need to
include tactile BSL however, and it’s important this is
included because it is used by deaf blind people. So, the Bill
should reference BSL and BSL in its tactile form.
I do want to use this opportunity to raise something about Makaton.
Makaton should not be anywhere near this Bill. It is not a
language. This Bill is to do with language only. Similarly, Sign
Supported English. These are both communication methods used to
support the learning of English or Welsh. They are not languages
and should not be considered within this Bill.
Question 9: Deaf people face barriers in all of these areas.
A lot of it depends on where you are in life though. From the age
of 4 to around 25, the biggest area I faced barriers in was
education. At the moment, my biggest barrier is around health. Not
mine, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
Xxx is hearing but as I am
xxx carer, my barriers become
xxx barriers. Because I am
representing xxx, and I
cannot access things, my xxxxxx (and previously my xxxxxx) receives substandard service. So,
you can see how the BSL Bill is not only relevant to deaf people,
not even just to those who use sign language. It has implications
for many other people too in wider society.
Additionally, my well-being as a deaf person has an impact on those
around me, even if they cannot sign. If I am stressed for example,
because of barriers that I face as a deaf person, then people
around me experience a problem too because everybody’s
well-being contributes to community well-being.
If we work our way through the list, in terms of education, there
are certainly barriers. It’s been a long time now since I was
at school, but there are things that are still relevant today. For
example, education policy from the 1970s that effectively outlawed
BSL is still in use within the system. There was a push at that
time to focus on listening and lip reading, not signing and that
had a profound effect on many people. I remember seeing deaf people
who had been attending deaf schools where they were able to sign
suddenly, at age 11 or 12, being moved into mainstream settings and
expected to cope with accessing education only in English.
That’s not fair. Their language from a young age had been
sign language but because of a policy decision to remove sign
language, they had to adapt to education in English only. They had
no choice in this. Yes, this happened a long time ago, but deaf
people are still scarred by this experience, and they remember what
happened to them.
If you have not had an opportunity to acquire a full language that
will affect you for the rest of your life. If you are language
deprived as a child, this will affect you for your entire life. If
you have the opportunity to acquire sign language in a language
rich environment and become fluent, that stays with you for life
too.
I know last year the decision was made to postpone the GCSE in BSL.
Again, this was done without consultation with the community. There
was very little communication and information shared with deaf
people. Just because a GCSE is available, it does not mean that all
schools would need to offer it. It could just start small, and with
selected schools. For those children, hearing or deaf, who have
grown up using sign language, it would have been good to have an
option to do a qualification in their own first language. Where is
that opportunity for them now? Essentially, this is indirect
discrimination and will affect their chances of getting to
university, as they would have one less qualification. And
that’s without considering the fact that if English is your
second language, rather than your first, the standards you are able
to attain maybe lower (if you are being educated through your
second language).
I think the new offer under Skills for Life includes BSL but only
at a very minimal level as far as I remember, I think just five
hours of tuition. Again though, this is likely to be taught by
mainstream teachers without appropriate skills which means it
probably will not be taught properly. It’s not clear what the
aim of the qualification is. Without a clear aim and high-quality
teaching, standards will drop. It’s very patronising to deaf
people to treat their language like that and it’s very
frustrating to see. When I go out and about, I interact with people
in my community. I cannot sign even the simplest of things without
getting frustrated because people do not understand me. That then
becomes a health issue for me.
Health. I have already mentioned the impact in the area of health.
As I said earlier, I use health services a lot and have done over
the last 20 years, primarily when supporting my xxxxxxx, who I have cared for over a
number of years. Before my xxxxxx died, xx had hundreds of appointments every
week. My xxxxxx now is
approaching end of life care and also has many appointments with
numerous different services. Some of them have BSL access through
remote interpreting services but I often have to battle to get even
that. And I’m only talking here about my local health board.
I know that health boards in other areas have no access at all.
There is no national standard across Wales. It’s not just
health boards we need to think about, what about access to GP
services and additional support services. Some companies that
provide specialist equipment like beds or hoists, etc., and these
are difficult for me to navigate. Yes, I can email them, but if I
need help during the evening or at weekends, it’s a problem.
For example, if there is a problem with the mattress or an alarm, a
hearing person could phone and arrange somebody to come out and
sort things. As a deaf person, I can’t do that. Trying to
connect with services via Text Relay is terrible. That’s
actually a Welsh problem too.
Now, talking about health, let’s start with 999 access.
I’ve had reason to call 999 via SignVideo a few times, again
in relation to my xxxxxxx.
The interpreters that work the phones are usually from England.
I’ve certainly never connected with one from Wales. This can
cause difficulties when, for example, you have a Welsh address like
mine. The interpreters do not know where it is. They don’t
know where my county is. They can’t follow my spelling of
Welsh words and don’t know how to pronounce them.
Social care - same points as before really. There is no information
in BSL. Hearing people can choose information in English or Welsh,
but BSL is not provided. Another consideration under social care is
elder care. When I am old, if I need a care home, where do I go?
There is nothing suitable for me local to where I now live, close
to my family and my community. There are care homes that have care
staff fluent in English or Welsh, but not BSL. So, when I need a
care home, am I going to be sat there all alone for the rest of my
life? There is just no access. No training for staff. If I’m
lucky they might have done a 10-week course, but that’s not
enough to have a proper conversation. Across the whole of the UK,
there are, I think, only two care homes that cater for deaf people
- one in the Isle of Wight and one in Derbyshire. This links into
the Well-being of Future Generations Act. If you are planning for
the future, that’s something to think of, because in 20, 30
years’ time we’re going to need it more than ever. But
who is planning now for that eventuality? A BSL Act would also be
relevant to this kind of thing - care homes and social care, or
maybe home care. The needs are extensive. In England there are
often job adverts for home carers and support workers who can sign,
but not here in Wales.
The next point on the list is transport. The biggest issue here is
a lack of information about last minute changes to timetables.
Information may be displayed on screens, but this is not always
understandable to those whose first language is BSL. There are
often announcements on trains while they are moving too. These are
not signed, despite many trains having display screens. Information
is shown in English and Welsh but not BSL. It might be details of
the next stop, or information about a delay. Another issue with
transport is the difficulties deaf people face when they need to
ask for more detailed information or enquire how to navigate a more
complex journey. There is rarely interpreted access, but it could
easily be achieved via a remote interpreter.
Many deaf people have a concessionary bus pass. Recently Transport
Wales asked me to renew my pass. Yes, apparently, they needed to
check that I was still deaf! I’ve got no idea why; I’ve
been deaf all my life and will be for the rest of it. The letter I
received telling me I needed to renew my pass was really long and
written in complex English. There was no translated version
available. That could easily have been done, and the video
translation could have been uploaded and accessed by a QR code
printed on the letter. That kind of thing (a BSL translation)
should really be standard for any official communication, just as
it is for Welsh.
Other public services used by deaf people and their families
– I can think of a few, but they are UK wide services so not
really linked specifically to this consultation for Wales. Possibly
NRW. That’s important, especially when you’re
considering flood risks. I live in mid-Wales in an area prone to
flooding and it’s important to make sure that things like
flood warnings or alerts are accessible to deaf people too. This
ties in with the UNRCPD, Article 24 I think, although I’m not
100% sure on that. It says something about access in relation to
danger to life for deaf people. Here in Wales this would be
information in BSL but we just don’t see that
happening.
Information about national parks and beaches, things like that too.
I think that maybe deaf people would like to learn about, to know
more about their environment. This again relates to well-being and
the Well-being of Future Generations Act. Information about this
kind of thing is just not available in BSL and again deaf people
are missing out and cannot be part of any changes.
Workplace – where to start to be honest. I’ve already
talked about how the lack of interpreters is a big issue in rural
areas. It means there is no proper support for deaf people. This
leads to low aspirations. Issues in the workplace also link back to
issues in education. If there are barriers within education, it
means your qualifications are not likely to reflect your ability.
This will have a knock-on effect in the workplace. One thing we do
need to talk about is how Welsh language courses are completely
inaccessible to deaf sign language users. The courses out there
talk about English to Welsh but never BSL to Welsh. I tried
previously to sign up for a Welsh language course but was told I
could not attend because I was deaf and their teaching methods were
not inclusive of deaf people. Their class were set up with a focus
on conversation. There’s been no thought given to the
intersection of BSL and Welsh. It’s really important to give
this some consideration because all language-related careers
request Welsh. This means deaf people are disadvantaged and are
unable to apply because of these barriers. The BSL Bill only
considers BSL itself. It does not talk about how BSL may fit in
with other things such as Welsh language promotion.
Again, issues in the workplace and not just about interpreters -
can your colleagues communicate with you; can you join in
discussions; do they know any sign language? Across Wales, people
wear an orange badge to indicate that they can speak Welsh but we
don’t have anything similar to indicate those who can sign
BSL.
Question 10: I support the idea of a commissioner.
Legislation is merely a piece of paper unless anyone actually does
something with it. It may say that certain things should happen,
but you need somebody to actually make them happen, to enforce the
law, otherwise it just remains a piece of paper. The role needs to
be given to someone with clout though, not somebody in a clerical
role. That won’t work properly. The Welsh language has a
commissioner, and there is also an older people’s
commissioner. These are flagship roles where someone can lead
reform and promote awareness.
One sub-issue I’d like to raise further is the issue of
complaints. Deaf sign language users can be a vulnerable group.
They may have many complaints but are unable to raise them due to
the barriers they face in everyday life. Some issues have been
ongoing for years and years. Really, we need a person who can dig
into the issues that people face by focusing on specific areas of
complaint and seeing how policy can drive reform in those
areas.
What are the aims of the Bill? What does it seek to change?
Question 11: I Agree with the proposed remit but would add
something around documenting and preserving regional variations of
BSL; also, something around promoting use of the language. When
considering standards, it’s important to consider what they
are for. Are you talking about interpreting standards or teaching
standards? That’s an important point. Standards need to be
related to safeguarding issues.
The five-yearly reporting cycle proposed should tie in with the
Well-being of Future Generations Act reporting cycle. That would
make sense.
Question 12: Yes, but it’s important to consider the
make-up of the panel. It may be important to include parents of
deaf children to promote the needs of families. Currently, hearing
parents have great difficulty accessing opportunities to learn BSL
so that may be an issue for the panel. I think there needs to be
some flexibility around this but as a minimum, 90% of the panel
should be fluent BSL users That’s important because this is a
language issue not a deaf issue.
Question 13: Really, all of these areas should be
prioritised but I think we should not be making a decision now. I
think the decision about prioritisation should be made after
consultation with the Deaf community and some further clarity
around what the aims of the Bill actually are. Get the commissioner
in place first, then consult with the Deaf community properly so
that prioritisation is community-led. And to be clear, although I
agree that interpreting should form part of the priorities of this
Bill, it should only be a small part. This Bill needs to focus on
language and must consider language issues more broadly than just
interpreting access. Education is a key area but it’s also
important not to forget deaf adults.
Question 14: I know England has this requirement and I think
a brief annual summary is useful. The Welsh Government should do
something similar, to outline what’s happening, what
processes are taking place and what impact is being felt. It needs
to be a report that focuses on measurable aims though, and not
generalisations. Further clarity on the structure of such a report
would be welcomed. Certainly, the five-year review cycle needs to
be a thorough in-depth assessment.
Question 15: I would like to thank Mark Isherwood for
proposing the Bill and for progressing it. I would also like to
thank the MS for their support so far. This Bill would have the
greatest impact on deaf sign language users and that is key. It
would also impact families, work colleagues, children of deaf adult
adults and hearing people learning to sign too. These secondary
groups may be more numerous, but we should not lose sight of the
fact that primarily this Bill supports deaf BSL signers, and I
would encourage you to listen to them. Those who do not know sign
language or know very little may object to the Bill, but ask
yourself why. People who do not have lived experience of being
deaf, who do not sign and do not wish to sign have every right to
make that choice for themselves, but they should not then seek to
influence decisions that affect deaf sign language users.
I am now getting older. I have been deaf all my life and have many
years of political campaigning activity behind me. I really hope to
see this Bill pass. Wales is so far behind in its support of my
community. I’ve been waiting for a very long time to see this
happen, but I’m finally hopeful. Thank you.